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Shan Boodram: ...that I could take control of my love story

Jan: Welcome to Nobody Told Me! I'm Jan Black.

Laura: And I'm Laura Owens.

Jan: On this episode, we take a look at the challenges you face if you're single and dating these days. We're joined by certified sex educator and relationship expert, Shan Boodram, who has been called one of the most trusted voices in the sex, love, and dating space for the past 10 years.

Laura: Shan's new book is called, The Game of Desire: 5 Surprising Secrets to Dating with Dominance--and Getting What You Want. The book promises to teach you the self and social awareness to make dating your new favorite hobby. Shan, thank you so much for joining us.

Shan: Thank you for having me. And thank you for a very memorable welcome.

Laura: Great. You say that we live in a world where dissatisfaction and disenchantment with dating aren't just normal, they're expected. I so feel you on that, but why is it?

Shan: I think that dates back to the fact that we're just told to just figure it out. One of the biggest, massive education flaws that I see is that we don't teach people how to make connections and that starts from when you're seven years old. What do you do when your best friend moves away? How are you going to emotionally handle that loss? What do you do when you can't find someone to sit with at school? The basic emotional intelligence is not taught to us from a young age. The notion of connecting, of socialization, is really just left up to you to serendipitously figure out. It's like, "Go in there and just go. Just go for it."

Of course, as we get older, that's the same thing with dating. There's no strategy, there's no guidance, there is no instruction. It's just, "Go in there and figure it out." I think what's happening is that we keep making the car faster, cooler, have more crazy souped-up elements to it. The vehicle in which we make connections, a la our smartphone, is getting more advanced, but yet we still don't know how to drive, we still haven't been taught the basics of how to turn the car on.

I think when you continue to increase the method in which we can make connections, but don't have the education matchup, you have a lot of people crashing and burning. Statistically now, there's never been a worse time to date. I think that that is, again, pointing back to that massive educational flaw of ours.

Jan: I know you say that landing the person of your dreams starts with you, but I'm wondering why it is that you can do everything right and still end up with a bunch of losers; even though you have this wide-open field of people to choose from, thanks to dating apps.

Shan: Let me know what the everything right is. Again, because we don't have a tried and tested strategy. Again, because you don't learn about this in school, so everyone's version of what's right is different. When it comes to cooking rice, there's a specific formula. We all know how to make rice, it's two parts water to one part rice, if you mess it up, you can troubleshoot within that. But when it comes to dating, there's no instruction.

Whenever someone says to me, "I'm doing everything right." I'm like, "What are you doing?" I promise you, you'll probably figure out something in there that you really aren't doing right. When I say it starts with you, it's that, in essence, a lot of people know that they want connections, but I wonder how connected they are to who they truly are? I don't mean that in a hokey, "How much are you at one with yourself?" How honest are you about your strengths and your weaknesses? How honest are you about the defense mechanism elements of your personality that you've picked up over the years? How much discipline do you have in going, not for who you're initially attracted to, but who you know actually is compatible with you based on what your personality type is.

This was actually a big education for me. I've been in this space now for 13 years or something, so the figuring out myself part of it, and the learning the psychology of me, my brain and my personality, and trying to change things I could see over time really wasn't getting me results I wanted that I have been doing for a decade. I stupidly thought that I could teach women to do this in one session, and that was half the book. Half of the battle was really getting people to understand themselves and look at themselves honestly. I would challenge anybody who says, "I'm doing everything right" to send me a list of what that everything is, and let's work on restructuring that together.

Laura: I feel like one of the big pitfalls that people have when they're dating is they carry over their baggage from past relationships, whether that's an intimate relationship or even a family or friend relationship that has gone wrong.

Shan: Could not agree more. I think one of the big 'a-ha' moments of the book is, we did this self-summary workbook, which is available online for free for everybody, if anyone's interested. It takes two hours, it's quite lengthy, but it's a really great payoff. I think it's way more accurate than any astrology chart that you're going to read. In it, you could see that people had a really easy time pointing back to why they were a certain way. If they become a people-pleaser over time, they would say, "My mom always told me I was doing something wrong." They would always attribute their fault to someone else. There comes a certain point in time where you have to say, "That happened to me in the past and that wasn't good. Maybe in that relationship I had to become this way to survive, but that trait or quality is not bringing me the kind of life that I want. I have to work on it even though I didn't ask for this quality."

One of the girls in the group, she came from a really tough relationship and as a result, she became a really tough person. She didn't ask for that relationship to happen the way that it did, and she had to change in order to survive. But some of the changes that she made was also disqualifying her from the kinds of partners that she did want to attract. There's a mix of making peace with what happened and giving yourself grace to say, "That wasn't okay and I didn't deserve that. But I also shouldn't carry on those traits and make that a part of who I now am. I can change my outcome, and then I can change my outputs as I can change my outcome." You don't have to keep up certain defense mechanism personality traits because, hopefully, you'll position yourself better next time to be around people. Especially as we get older, we have more control over who we're around. Hopefully we're around people who don't bring out that ugly side of us.

Jan: In your book, The Game of Desire, you talk about these five surprising secrets to dating with dominance and getting what you want. How did you try out these five strategies in real life, and what are they?

Shan: I wouldn't call the secrets surprising; it was one of those things the publisher said that I'm like, "Sure, let's add the word surprise in there." They're actually pretty basic, they're five basic tips, but they're hard. Phase one is 'Know.' That's, again, you have to know yourself. If I asked you guys right now to explain to me how your internet works, you use this thing every single day. But do you know why you're getting internet, what happens if it breaks down, and what the circuits are called? Do you really know?

Same thing with ourselves. We might know that we need ourselves, we might know certain things, when we work and don't work. But do we have language to describe that, and can we effectively describe that to others? Also, a part of 'Know' is, yes, you have to be insightful on yourself, but you also need feedback from others. In the book, I had the girls go back to an ex to get insight on, "What am I like as an intimate partner?" That was a part of the 'Know.' After you know, you got to start making changes. What's in your control? I'm a big fan of taking control. I want women, in particular, to be in the driver's seat of their love life, that means that's on you to make some changes. Yes, we can all agree, and I don't want to gaslight anybody because, again, dating is really hard.

Statistically, there's a book called, Date-Onomics, that really exemplifies how mathematically hard it is right now, especially for heterosexual woman. But that's not going to change with complaining on Twitter, all that you can do is change you. I make this comment in the book that in 2008, we recognize that there was a recession, there was a massive dip in jobs and that was the reality of our society at the time. But there were some people that 2008 was their best year yet because they learned how to navigate within that system, they knew how to take control, they knew how to ride the wave to still ensure that they got what they want out of that time. That's what I'm trying to empower women to do. So, two is 'Change'

Three is to 'Learn.' In 'Learn,' I enlisted the help of several different kinds of experts ranging from self-defense to psychologists, to a stripper, to body language experts. Phase four was 'Practice.' The final phase is 'Be.' I say 'Be' because that's how much work it takes until something becomes a part of who you are. You have to really go through and systematically step-by-step. Your brain does not like to make changes. You have to go slow. You have to enlist the help of guidance.

I think what made the women in the book's success so great, which I would love to help readers duplicate, is the circle of accountability we had; wherein not only did they have somebody walking them through the process, but they also had each other. It was like, "Have you finished this assignment? Where are you at now? What's going on?" And we had these group chats. It can take some time from person-to-person. Those are the five secrets, but I guess they're not secrets anymore.

Jan: I love those.

Laura: I would love to get your feelings on women being the pursuer in relationships since you have these dating apps, like Bumble, where the woman needs to make the first move.

Shan: I want to hear what your guy's take is first. What's your thoughts on women making the first move?

Laura: I think it's completely fine. I, obviously, grew up in a different time than my mom did, and Bumble actually is my very favorite dating app, I think it's awesome.

Shan: Ooh.

Laura: Yeah.

Jan: I think it's great for the woman to make the first move if she's comfortable with it. I think a lot of woman are probably not comfortable with it for my age group.

Laura: In my age group, I have a lot of friends who refuse to use Bumble and are really not comfortable with that. I think it really depends on the person and their personality type.

Shan: You know what too? It is practice, that's it. We went to a pickup artist, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the genre of pickup artistry, but it's like a multi-million dollar industry that basically teaches men how to speak to women. There's parts of that that's not that great that the pickup artistry community has been a part of. But what I like about that is it says, "Hey, if you're not somebody who is just naturally born with the charisma, maybe you weren't socialized great in school. For you, approaching people, or making connections is a lot harder than the average person. Here, we'll teach you." What he said, the expert, said to the women in the group, he said that he had a Navy SEAL who said to him, "I would rather run into open enemy fire then go up and talk to a woman." What he said he learned from that is that everyone is afraid of rejection, everyone's afraid to approach.

But it literally is just like riding a bike, the more that you do it, the easier it becomes. Someone coming up to you doesn't mean they liked you a lot, it just means that they're accustomed to talking to people. I had my cousin and my sister over a couple months ago, they were getting so annoyed with me because I talk to everybody. They were like, "Oh, my God, we don't want to be in these conversations with these randoms all the time." But I do that because when I'm in front of Jada Pinkett, that's why I'm able to say and ask her a question because I've been practicing all the time.

I would say for women who don't want to make the first move, redefine what the first move is. The first move doesn't mean, "Hey baby, what's your number?" That's not the first move. The first move might be, "Can you pass that napkin?" The first move might be, "Does this place get busy later?" The first move might be, "Oh, your shoes are really cute. I actually have a pair really similar at home in a different color." That might just be open a door to conversation. That's the first move, it's engaging in discussion. After you do that, you just do that all the time. Then when it counts, it's not that hard for you. I would say for women who are not accustomed to doing it, start doing it with the hotdog lady, start doing it with your Uber driver, start doing it while you're waiting in line at the bathroom at the ballpark. Just start engaging in conversation with people and you'll see it literally is just like riding a bike.

Jan: When it comes to The Game of Desire, you point out that we are all biologically born to win. Tell us more about that.

Shan: Yes, we are born to bond honey, it’s our superpower. Again, humans, we're not the fastest runners, we don't swim underwater for long periods of time, we don't climb trees, we don't have super sharp teeth. What makes us distinct? Why are we on the top of the food chain? It's our ability to work together, it's our ability to create a logical bond, and our ability to care for one another. Love is our superpower. That is not like Powerpuff/Care Bears thing that I'm saying. I think it's a literal biological truth that that's our greatest strength.

Once you look at it from that perspective, know that your brain is constantly trying to make connections. We all know that in places that don't necessarily make a lot of sense. We're attracted to the football player who we know is a jerk, who we know gets around, but your brain is born to bond and biologically it's told that the alpha male, who sows their seed the most, is the one that you want to go for. Knowing that your brain is born to bond is a positive thing in many ways because, wow, I know I'm designed to do this.

But also, it means you have to have discipline. Just like we're born to eat, we can't just go around eating whatever we want, even though our bodies would probably gladly have another slice of pizza. That sense of discipline has to come in where we acknowledge that our brain is desperate to do this thing, but we can't act out of desperation because that's when you make bad choices.

Jan: A lot of people subscribe to the notion though that there's just one person who could be their soulmate and that they have very little time to find that one person. You don't share that view, do you?

Shan: It depends. You know what it is? In life, there's some real tough people to get along with, and we've met them before, that person. I've met some people before, I'm like, "I am curious to know who's going to end up being your life partner. Who's going to say 'yes' to this every single day?" They just make life so difficult for themselves. They make every interaction so disagreeable and contentious. That is a possibility for some people that there aren't a lot of individuals out there who would work well with them. Or maybe this person has extreme emotional instability, in such a case, there aren't a ton of people who might be able to effectively bond with you and create a healthy, reciprocal relationship.

What I'm trying to do with the book is teach people to be the kind of person who could be for most people, I refer to it as garlic people. Garlic goes with everything. You could throw garlic in pasta, you can throw it in Indian food. Garlic, it just is. It's easy to mix in with stuff, it's a foundational ingredient. I want people to become garlic, that increases your chances of finding love. If love gets lost, because that's a fact of life as well too, you know that you can get back out there and make it happen for yourself again because you're the kind of person who gets along with most people.

Laura: You say that we should create a job description for our ideal romantic partners, I'm wondering how strict we need to be with this?

Shan: In the book, I'm pretty strict about it. I refer to it as, if you think of yourself as a multi-billion dollar company, because you are, there's no other company like you. If you were in charge, if you're the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company and they were like, "We're trying to hire someone to be in the executive suite, go look for somebody." Would you be like, "Let me see who's cute and who has a nice picture with a tiger." Or would you be like, "Nah, this is important. This company is going to be relying on this individual. We're going to be spending a sufficient amount of time and investment on this individual, let's make sure that we don't make a bad decision. And let's be really clear about our vetting process."

Now, the thing with dating is that effort has to be both your secret and primary ingredients. There is the thing, if people are trying too hard, or it seems too formulaic and not personal, you lose people. I do not suggest that you put your job posting out there. I don't suggest that you tell people that you're weighing them against the job posting. Of course I don't suggest that you bring this to the first date and ask questions and tick off boxes. It still has to feel organic, in a flow, but your intention has already been set, you know what you're looking for, and you know who's going to make your company thrive.

I always say this too, "Just because someone doesn't belong in the CEO suite, doesn't mean you can't open up a position in the mailroom for them.” But also, be clear. Just because someone's in the mailroom and doing a really great job at delivering the mail, doesn't mean they should be promoted again to the CEO suite. Being really clear about the different roles people can play into your life and managing expectations accordingly so that your company, which is you, can continue to be happy, successful, and lucrative.

Jan: Another interesting thing you say is that your system won't work if someone tries to do it while surrounded by toxic individuals. If people around you are discouraging, or poking fun, or outright doubting your efforts, what should you do?

Shan: I say in the book that negative people are a lot like thongs, you don't realize how far up your ass they are until you take that thong off, and you're like, "Wow, I've been walking around with the craziest wedgie all day long and I didn't realize it." These negative individuals, it just stays in your psyche.

That quote that we are the sum of the five people we spend the most amount of time with, if you're spending time around people who are implanting negative thoughts and ideals into your brain and also giving grace for that because we live in a very opulent society in a very abundant society. But we come from scarce beginnings, we come from the woods where, again, we don't run the farthest or swim the furthest. For that reason, we have to have a scarcity sense to us, like, "I don't want to share." That's why, as kids, we don't want to share. We get mad when our friend has a toy that we don't.

If you're not socialized out of that behavior, you end up in your adult years sabotaging other people's success without really understanding why you're doing that. You have to recognize those people like, "Ah man, you haven't figured it out, there's enough for everybody. You haven't figured it out that change is necessary. You haven't figured it out that just because I'm improving myself, doesn't mean that I think less of you for not being on the same path. You're subconsciously trying to cut me down because I'm making you feel uncomfortable through my success or through my efforts. That's okay, I'll always be here for you on the journey, but I got to also protect my progress, so I've got to start surrounding myself with different sets of people." That's a really hard thing to do.

It's like I said, that might be a barrier for you for starting this program. Maybe you got to take six months to clean house. If you recognize that everybody who's around you is happy with you being where you're at, and if you're not happy with where you're at, that's a problem.

Laura: Since you encourage women to be strong and date with dominance, I'm really curious to get your take on women going back to their exes and if that's ever okay.

Shan: I also want to get your take on that one, what's your take?

Laura: I think it really depends on the situation. But I guess I would say that, for the most part, it's a better idea not to go back to your ex and to just move on with your life and find somebody new.

Shan: I agree with that. I totally get what you just said about it being sometimes okay. Here's when you can go back, when you're like, "Man, I was an emotional mess at that time in that relationship," or, "I really had to change, I was super selfish back then. I didn't necessarily know how to reciprocate intimacy and I'm so different now." Again, you can change your output, which can affect the outcome. You don't go back when you're like, "I did everything perfect, let me hope that this person is now on my page." When you're basing the reunion on things that are out of your control, I think you're setting yourself up for failure. But if you know that there's things that are within your control that would make a difference the next time around, why not give it a try?

There are six women that I worked with in the story, the book is half a story and half a self-help book. One of the women in the book, I actually interviewed one of her exes for her as a part of her assignment because she was like, "I just don't want to talk to him. I'm just not ready for that. I also think that I might get too emotional asking these questions." Long story short, she actually is dating that person now. Through this experience, she recognized a lot of the things that she did to sabotage their connection, and she still felt feelings for this person. She's like, "I think I could try again. I think I could do better, and I think things could turn out differently." I think in those cases, it's really beautiful to try again.

Also too, I don't think I'm asking people to find their forever partner, I'm just asking people to put themselves in a position to enjoy their love life. When you enjoy your love life, when you're in relationships that help you to grow, help you to see yourself and make you love who you are, you feel cool, you feel progressive, you feel smart, you feel beautiful, you feel hot. That may not last forever, that may last for three months, then you realize, "Ah, man, I don't think we're on the same direction." Or, "I want kids and you don't." Or, "You want to move and I don't." Or, "You want polyamory, I'm not." "But these three months have been incredible," or "These three years have been incredible, thank you for that time." I'm trying to get people to avoid the relationship they have to go to therapy afterwards, or they have to go back and try to heal because it was so traumatic for them. I don't think there's anything wrong with going back to an ex because you think you can learn and be better, trying it out for six months, it not working, but you still gaining something really valuable through that reconnection.

Jan: You have a great list in there of things that don't work when it comes to trying to seduce somebody, and I love them. You talk about it's not seductive to behave immaturely, or to judge others and to be the fashion, grammar, or politeness police. Or to cling, or be a shadow, or a long talker. Tell us a little bit more about some of those things that we shouldn't do.

Shan: Can you just hit them all, those are great. Thank you.

Jan: I thought they were fabulous because I looked at that and I thought, "Yeah, that's absolutely right." Or a pusher of your own values, or an eggshell.

Shan: I think when you read those, if you try to picture a person who's like that in your life, you're like, "Someone's reading this list and picturing me as one of these. What's happening?" Sometimes when we use broad statements like, "If you're selfish, or if you're immature," that's kind of vague for people. If you really break it down and that's broken down into 12 different anti-seducers, you're probably going to find yourself in there. I know I'm in there a couple of times, those are things that I've had to work on.

It was funny because I also re-interviewed an ex who I completely thought was my soulmate, my number one, and he just ghosted me all of a sudden. I realized it was some of the anti-seductive qualities that I was carrying and were showing up a lot for him and making it appear, on his perspective, that I wasn't the kind of person he could partner with long-term.

I feel like reading through this list should be, read through it one time by picturing someone else under each different category. Read through it a second time and ask yourself, "Really? I'd be in this one." I think that can open up a lot of interesting conversations for change.

Laura: I know we have a lot of people who are listening to the show who are going to be first-time online daters, what sites should they sign up for? Should it be sites or apps? What should they look for in a person since you can only see five photos and a brief description?

Shan: That's such a great question. In the book, I interviewed two dating app experts, one from OkCupid and one from The League, and they gave a really incredible crash course on how to make dating apps work for you, not the other way around. I do suggest that people read that. I'll actually try to put that online for free, as well, too, that should be a resource that's just out there.

With the job listing exercise, what we were able to do with each person in the group is, in the end, when you put together the do not applies, the skills of interest, the absolute basic requirements, how far this person had to be, the quality of life you want them to have, when you put all that together, you kind of got an archetype in the end. In the end, you're like, "I'm looking for a vegan, scientist-type." Or, "I'm looking for somebody with a 9-5 who enjoys outdoor activities." What job, what kind of person might that be? When you do that, you'll be able to, because there's so many different dating apps, if I do all this, I'm like, "I'm looking for somebody who's really passionate about Black Lives Matter or Black issues, who also comes from an academic background, but maybe now is a freelancer."

There's this new cool dating app just came out actually, so you might be able to do it that way and find a niche app that's best for you. I think that niche is best. That's the most strategic way to meet somebody, is to be clear about who you're looking for and hang out where that kind of person might be. The in-person version of that is if I know I'm looking for a firefighter-type, I frequent the happy hour spots that they go to after their shift is done, and I hang around there. If I know I'm looking for a firefighter-type, what apps is that kind of person on? That might help you, from the picking standpoint.

One of my favorite tips is just keep it minimal, stay with one or two. Designate half an hour max a day to be on these dating apps. Once you get one or two matches, stop. You can really burn yourself out by just going into the gamification process of it. Try to keep it as niche as possible and keep the time as minimal as possible so you don't end up completely overwhelmed.

Laura: I think you also need to be open to looking at somebody and realizing that maybe they have a bad photo or maybe they don't know how to really write about themselves but they might be better in person. That's one lesson that I've really learned.

Shan: Have you met some great people that were like, "I've never heard of this when you signed up," that are really cool?

Laura: I have met people that seem very different from their dating profile, for better or for worse. I've thought to myself that I don't need to take it so literally.

Shan: Yes, I think that's a really, really great tip. I also think it depends on how long you've been online dating for. When I online dated, I had a pretty strict system. I always say you can do the work on either end. I've told people my system before, they're like, “Oh, my God, that's so much work. You're just making it so unfun.” I'm like, “Fair enough.” You can do the work before with planning, being strategic, and having a vetting process, or you can go on dates, waste your time, and do the work afterwards. It's going to happen either way. You're going to have to invest time into figuring out who does and who doesn't work, and you're going to waste some time in the process.

I will say, my dating app experience, to your point, I swiped on some people who didn't have a great photo, but once I match with them, I usually had a couple of candid questions. I always asked about their profile to make sure that they knew it, it wasn't a copy-and-paste. I was looking to see if there were certain qualities. I was surprised sometimes that somebody, even if they didn't end up being a romantic interest. I met people on dating apps, like one guy, he ended up styling the photoshoot for my engagement photos. Another guy, he gave artwork for myself and my husband, our first place that we lived in together, he painted the artwork. I have cast countless dudes I've met through online dating apps in videos of mine. I have friends in that space, I got one a graphic designer job for a major client, I didn't necessarily meet the guy, but because my vetting was really good. I met amazing people who I still wanted to keep in touch with.

I think, again, is like, hopefully what the goal is, because there's a certain amount of magic that has to happen to meet your person. I can give you all the strategy in the world and you can make great connections. I can promise you, if you work with me, you'll never have a bad first date again. You'll have fun, you'll get to know somebody, you'll learn something, you may not call them the next day, you may not like them, but you're not going to have a terrible time on the date. When it comes to finding that individual, as you know, not until you're in person can you tell if there's actually that "Ahh," to it.

Jan: You talk about change and how important change can be, it's one of the five dating secrets, that you should change the habits and the perceptions that are holding you back, including your appearance and your mindset. I'm just wondering, what can you do if you genuinely feel that you're not physically attractive?

Shan: One of the things I'm giving away for free as well, I know I sound like some kind of 1-800 or infomercial, is this color guide. We had a style expert who worked with us in the book, and she blew my mind because she talked about color psychology and how different colors put together can communicate different things. She's like, "Your clothes are your armor, it's what you put on to prepare for the day. But color is your language." This is the thing, it's 2019, everyone can be attractive, it is a club that is open for all. We all have the same accessibility that Beyoncé has. We could get a bunch of different hair color, we can get things to make our lashes 20,000 feet tall. Or if we're not into that look, we can get really great skincare products, or we can change our style.

One of the girls in the group, she's LGBQT and also really quirky, and the kinds of people that she finds attractive to me, I'm just always blown away by. I'm like, "I would have thought that person was homeless." That is her shit, 100%. They ooze a confidence in that space, they're part of a culture, they know their look, and they found their community. There's something about them that when you look at it from that perspective, I can see how they're hot. I feel like the whole physically attractive bit is so accessible to everyone, you just have to put the work in. I'll just end that there.

There's tons of people out here who aren't born with it and still have it. I also think, thanks to the internet, we're not fed the same singular image of Cindy Crawford, like this is beauty, this is beauty, this is beauty. We now have so many different choices to pick from, so many different wonderful shapes, sizes, and colors, who are positioned as beautiful, who are praised, and who are given magazine covers. Of course you can always improve, but things are really changing on that front. I would hope people are riding that wave of change to their advantage.

Laura: Shan, as you know, our show is called, Nobody Told Me! At the end of each program, we ask our guests, "What is your nobody told me lesson?" What is it that nobody told you about dating, love, relationships, sex, whatever you want to take it to, that you wish somebody had.

Shan: Nobody told me that my gut didn't know what it was talking about. Nobody told me that some of my most basic drives and instincts would betray me and lead me into situations that weren't the healthiest for me. Nobody told me that you actually should learn about this; just like if you want to get good at cooking, you have to practice, try, enlist the help of experts, and go about it systematically. No one told me that when it comes to love, or sex, or dating, the same thing applies.

They told me, you're just going to know when the right person hits. They told me that when you get that feeling, that something, or go with your gut, or just be yourself, those were the messages that I was told. I was also told that relationships are hard work. I have found that relationships don't have to be hard work, if you put in the work first, then the relationship can actually just be an easy, natural flow from the effort you've put in before. I would just say that nobody told me that this part of my life could benefit from a little bit of elbow grease. I wish I knew that earlier.

Jan: Shan, how can people get in touch with you on the internet?

Shan: Come listen to this podcast over and over again because this has been really fun, I would hope that you do that. I am anywhere under @shanboody, that's short for my last name, not my anatomy, there's not much going on back there.

Jan: What about your website?

Shan: I'll just say it, thegameofdesire.com is probably the better of sources only because I have free quizzes there, the free workbook. I have a commitment quiz, there's an attachment style quiz that have done really well and people have super enjoyed. Those are 10-minute quick things you can do to start this journey for yourself and tons of entry points for people who are intrigued, but not yet sold, and that's okay. The train still has space for you if you need a bit more time.

Jan: All right, Shan, thank you so much for joining us.

Shan: Thank you so much, Jan, I really appreciate it. This is a super cool call and I now have San Francisco homies, so I appreciate that.

Jan: Good, good.

Laura: We'd love to have you back again, you were awesome.

Shan: All right, bye Jan, bye Laura.

Laura: Bye.

Jan: Bye-bye. Our thanks to Shan Boodram. Again, her new book is called The Game of Desire: 5 Surprising Secrets to Dating with Dominance--and Getting What You Want. You can learn more at thegameofdesire.com. I'm Jan Black.

Laura: And I'm Laura Owens.

Jan: You're listening to Nobody Told Me! Thank you so much for joining us.

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